ArtistFirst.com Interview with Matt McCabe

Broadcast on November 10, 2004

Z-man (Z):  Hey everybody in Internet radio-land.  Thanks for hanging with us. We really appreciate it.  It’s why we’re here.  You’ve got the Z-man here sitting in, filling in for DJ Ray.  Who’s away from the microphone this evening.  We have a featured music special coming up.  Of course you guys know that because that’s what we every week at this time. (station ID).  Let’s introduce our guest for the next hour.  The project is called King Never and I’m flying as blind as you guys are - although I have heard a couple cuts in the studio before we started.  Let’s give a warm Artistfirst welcome to Matt McCabe.  Hey Matt, how are you?

Matt McCabe (M):  Pretty good.  Pleasure to be here.

Z:  And you are in California?

M:  I am.

Z:  Well, congratulations.  I think that’s an achievement all of its own!  Welcome to the Artistfirst Network.

M:  Thank you.

Z:  Matt, we’re going to be learning all about you right now for the next hour.  And, I suppose it makes sense to start the broadcast off with telling us a little about you as an individual. An audio picture, so to speak, about who Matt McCabe is.  And, as I like to say, we were born and then what happened?

M:  (laughs) Well, like anyone else, I went to school and then tried to, you know, find a place in the world.  Along the way, I discovered music and it’s been a lifelong passion for me.  Thanks to modern technology and equipment being available at record home, I’ve been able to put out a couple of albums that I’m pretty proud of.

Z:  We are a huge, enthusiastic supporter of do-it-at-home studios.  Unfortunately Matt, so much of the population is still a little bit in the dark about the virtues of home studios.

M:  Yeah, I mean, it really…for the independent artist, assuming you can save up and get the equipment, for subsequent projects, it makes it so much more affordable than booking time with a professional studio.  And I think it allows you to be a little more creative and maybe experiment with some different ideas that if you were pushed for time, you might not feel comfortable exploring.

Z:  How long has music been a part of your life?  At what age did you discover that this was something that you wanted to do with your time?

M:  Well, I think it started in the 3rd or 4th grade.  My parents pretty much told me that I was going to participate in the school band and needed to pick an instrument.  And the instrument of choice at that time was the clarinet. From that time, up until I graduated from high school, I continued playing in the school orchestra.  In junior high, I picked up the electric guitar because, you know, to be honest, the clarinet is not very hip.  So, I picked up the electric guitar, took some lesson, had my high school and college bands, and here I am today.

Z:  So, on the first CD, there’s two of them you sent material on.  On the first…Matt McCabe, guitar, guitar loops, bass, drums, programming and some vocals.  You know, that’s an entire litany of what it takes to put a record together.  Wouldn’t you say that most of this project is, really, Matt McCabe.  Even though you have help from Greg Asher, Jeff Elbel, and Kristy McCabe.

M:  That is correct.  I’d say ninety-five percent of it is me with the other people contributing their flourishes and colors to it.

Z:  We’ve got the first selection cued up off of the Orphans, Misfits & Fragments CD.  That’s a great name.  How did you come up with that?

M:  Well, the idea….  Basically, I had all these songs sitting on my hard drive that were in various stages of completion.  I had this idea of, since I can record at home, "…well, some of these ideas I may not consider finished, but I can put together a concept album of song fragments, songs that didn’t necessarily have a home, the orphaned songs, and then just the random…misfits."  So I came up with the idea and that gave me the freedom to actually further develop and finish all the songs on the album.  It gave me the cohesive theme to put the album together because the songs were written over a period of a number of years, right up until the last song I finished… which was "Monday."  And, you know, it was a work in process until the album was done.

Z:  I’m staring at the cover of Orphans, Misfits & Fragments.  Let me describe it for the listeners.  There’s two animals, in cartoon fashion, on the cover.  One appears to be a duck, the other appears to be a giraffe.  You can see their skeletons and they are wearing roller skates.  The duck is holding a pennant, like a sports pennant, that says King Never.  Who came up with the art for this?

M:  A friend of my sister, who is an artist, her name is Stacey Vigallon. I contacted her, told her a little bit about the project.  With a name like King Never, I was a little bit concerned of it coming of as being a pretentious project. So I said, "Go ahead and have some fun with it."  I’d seen some samples of her work where she’d done similar artwork with the animal and skeletons.  I said, "If you can kinda go in that direction that would be great."  But other than that, I gave her free reign and I was pretty happy with what she came up with.

Z:  Well, come on, it begs the question.  King Never?

M:  (laughs) I was reading Crime & Punishment by the Russian author Dostoevsky.  A friend had said, "You need to read this book." Excellent book.   In the book, there’s just this brief mention of King Never.  It’s just mentioned once in the book and the name just stuck in my head.  Not necessarily as a band name, but as a concept.  And it stuck with me for a number of years.  I finally said, "You know, that might be a cool name of the project." Since that time, I haven’t been able to find a copy of the book that has that same translation.  I’ve found other copies that have translated it "Jack the Giant Killer" and "Coocooland" but it didn’t quite have the same ring as King Never.  (laughs) So, if anyone has a copy of Crime and Punishment out there with King Never in it, drop me an email.  I’ll buy it from you. 

Z:  Well…let’s get into a cut off of Orphans, Misfits & Fragments from King Never.  We have "Upside Down Girl" cued up.  What would you like to say about it before we spin it out to the audience?

M:  It’s a typical love song, if you will.  I wrote the lyrics a number of years ago, before I was married.  My friend, Greg Asher is singing on it.  The song is a little over three minutes, but I think it encapsulates my sonic aesthetic.  It moves from the middle section that has a more ambient guitar loop going in the background and then it kind of fades out with a nice rock jam.  I think it’s a pretty good pop song.

("Upside Down Girl" played)

Z:  Alright!!  Now that’s a good cut right there.  Matt McCabe!!  The group is called King Never.  Excellent cut dude!!

M:  Thank you.  Thank you.

Z:  Excellent, excellent work.  Don’t you guys love it that tune into this Network, you want to hear good, fresh, new stuff in here.  We know.  Matt’s going to be with us for the rest of the hour.  (station ID).  Wow, I was impressed with that cut.  I’m hearing that British star…who sang "China Girl"….

M:  David Bowie.

Z:  David Bowie!!  I’m thinking David Bowie through that whole tune.  Who do folks say, to you, that you sound like?

M:  Well, the most interesting one to date has been someone who listened to the song "Free."  He actually said that some of the vocal harmonies reminded him of Alice in Chains - which is not anything that I would have come up with.  So, I tend to think that people hear what they want to hear in the music.  Certainly, David Bowie is…I love a lot of music and I think he’s a great artist.  Some of the people he collaborates with are just outstanding.  So, I like that one a little better than Alice in Chains although they certainly have some good music.  I’m trying to think of some direct comparisons that people have made.  I think some people have said that Greg Asher, who just sang on the last cut that we heard, reminds them of Depeche Mode - his vocal stylings.  Some of the artists that have influenced me in my younger days are The Police, The Fixx, early U2.  For the weirder stuff, a band called King Crimson.    Love their stuff. They’re progressive rock — kind of out there.  Like I said before, I think people hear what they want to hear.  They clue in on certain aspects of songs that they like and go, "Hey that sounds like such and such artist."

Z:  Yeah.  Ultimately you sound like King Never.

M:  (laughs)  Well, that’s what I hope!

Z:  Let’s get right down to it.  Everybody…it’s a human trait to compare you to something that they already have an understanding of in their existence.  It is refreshing to hear projects like this.  You remind me of the guy from Steely Dan for some reason. That’s one of my idol bands.  Donald Fagan and the other guy whose name escapes me.

M:  Steely Dan.  That’s a good example of a project that was largely…all their stuff was created in the studio.

Z:  Well, I did get a chance to see them at Blossom Music Center a few years ago, live.  Which was a real treat, especially being a big Steely Dan fan.  How much have you played out?  Now you talked about…you had bands in high school.  Your bands in college.  What would you put an estimate on the number of gigs you’ve played in front of people?

M:  Just dealing with a rock and roll setting, not going to count my orchestra days…. I’d say on the order of 150 to 200. Not a whole lot from a professional touring musician standpoint.

Z: But you’ve spent many hours on stage in that situation. What were you playing in the majority of those bands?

M: I’ve always tired to be in bands that write their own music.

Z: All original bands? You where able to keep an original band going all those years like that?

M: Correct. I’m not saying it was one band…it’s been a number of different bands.

Z: But those types of projects? That’s great.

M: My feeling is…we can spend the time learning someone else’s song to cover or we could maybe spend just a little bit more time and come up with our own material. For me, it’s just much more satisfying than playing cover tunes.

Z:  Your stuff is done. You already have something to contribute to history that so many artists never get out there and do. They say, "I’m always gonna do a CD.  I’m always gonna get that album done." What motivated you over the guy down the street that didn’t do a CD?

M:  For me, actually releasing an album is part of the creative process.  When it comes right down to it, I write and record music that I enjoy listening to.  I do it for myself, but then there’s that part, that any person who has any creative aspirations, they want to share their creation with people.  In my mind, this project wouldn’t have been done unless I put the CD out and hopefully a few people will buy it and enjoy it.  I think it completes the cycle.

Z:  After playing a hundred and fifty gigs, multiply that probably by five, you know, hundreds of hours on stage.  And then, God knows how many hours you spend in your studio being the mad scientist putting this together.  Which is more comfortable for you?

M: Well…that’s a good question because they are really two different worlds. When you’re up on stage, you are very much in the moment. Whereas when you’re recording, you have the opportunity to go back and fine tune some ideas. In the live setting, as soon as you hit that string it’s already out there. It’s too late to go back and fix it. But, the thing that’s nice about performing live is that you get that instant feedback. You get the feedback from the audience and then also from your band members. Which I think is…there’s really something special that happens when you rehearse with a bunch of guys and go out there and play. And then you see the people actually enjoying the music that you’ve worked on. It’s a really powerful, powerful feeling.

Z: Especially when they’re not throwing shot glasses at you! (laughs) Let’s get back into another tune. We’re about to run the opening track now, entitled "Desperate." Why’d you choose this to open your CD?

M: It’s a little more hard-hitting then some…it’s an instrumental song. I was hoping it would grab people’s attention. You can tell me if it was effective or not. It has some nice parts that show the versatility of the project. My friend Jeff Elbel does the last guitar solo. The different pieces show the dynamic of what I envisioned King Never to be.

("Desperate" played)

Z: You’re listening to a featured music special on the Artistfirst Radio Network. That’s the music of Matt McCabe. He’s got a CD out with a project called King Never. The opening track off of the Orphans, Misfits & Fragments CD, it’s called "Desperate." I think it’s pretty obvious to all of our listeners Matt, you’re an extremely talented guy.

M: Thank you.

Z: That song reminds me of another artist who has been on here from Texas named Chris Burton. I’m sure you have no idea who that is. Could it be possible that you have a twin in this world and you where separated at the hospital by mistake?

M: (laughd) I suppose it’s possible!

Z: Chris is gonna have to check that out!

M: I’ll have to check out Chris’s material as well.

Z: We’ve got walls full of CDs here. Give us about four months. (laughs) I’m sure we’ll find it.

M: (laughs)

Z: When you’re in the studio and you’re working on your projects, is there a time of day…I’m going to guess, evening? You sneak in as the mad scientist and work all night ‘til dawn?

M: (laughs) You know, it really depends. I try to…my wife and my schedules are such that I have a couple of days where she’s at work and I’m home. Those are my main music days, where I can turn things up and not worry about bothering anyone. But then also, if an idea strikes, I’ll sneak in here and lay down a track. Maybe just a scratch track to refresh my memory when I come back to it later.

Z: You might go for weeks, months…and never even think about writing a song. And then in the period of a couple of weeks, you might blurt out several. What’s up with that? I hate to use the whole cliché, "What inspires musicians?" But, what happens to you on a day that you write a song that doesn’t happen on a day that you don’t?

M: That’s a good question. I have no idea. I think that as artists, if we could figure that out, we could probably produce a whole lot more music. (laughs) I tend to think, that even though I may not be consciously working on a song, I think subconsciously, the mind works on ideas. I view songwriting as a puzzle. You have all these different parts you are trying to fit together. And I know that if I’ve been working on a song and I set it aside for a week…just out of the blue, I might be watching TV, and I might go, "Gosh, here’s what I need to do for that bass part to make it work." You record it and it’s perfect. Or it might be the same way with lyrics. So, I think that we are probably always working on material, we just don’t know it.

Z: I’ve been doing a completely unscientific poll of the last one thousand artists who come through here. I ask them all the same question I’m about to ask you. When you write material, are you creating that song for the first time in all of history? Or, are you being allowed to tap into a consciousness, a stream of creativity that exist outside of you that artists tap into?

M: That’s an interesting question. When it comes down to it, there’s twelve musical tones, at least in our Western musical traditions, twenty-six letters of the alphabet. I suppose it’s possible that the songs we’re listening to tonight have been written before. They are only so many different combinations. I’d like to think that if I wasn’t on this planet these songs would never exist…but, maybe they would.

Z: I heard on NPR essay, about the Asian music scales that have far more notes than ours does. That’s kind of weird. I can’t even conceive of that. What are you talking about? There can’t be a note between a half-step. But anyway, I don’t even want to go there! So, do you read and write music? I mean, can you take out a piece of paper and jot down your notes and play or do you play by ear?

M: These days I play by ear. Of course, when I started I was more versed in actually reading….

Z: Well, of course in the high school band you had to.

M: Yeah. You had to. The way that rock and roll has developed, it’s very much...you play by ear. If fact, I can’t even remember the last time I tried to actually write down a chord chart or lead sheet for any of the music I’ve done recently. When I come up with an idea, I try to play it a bunch of times to ingrain it in my head. And then record it. That’s how I’m going to preserve that idea. I could write down sheet music for this stuff but it would take me years to figure out what I played and the best way to notate it.

Z: I have a Yamaha SY-85 workstation, a keyboard. After I play something up to thrifty-two tracks, it will print out each individual sheet of music for all of the tracks. I can’t read or write a note of music to save my life, but I have a studio at home that has picture frames of music scores because of some genius at Yamaha. Is that cool or what? It’s a sad commentary about the small recording studios. Out there in California there’s lots of Mom and Pop recording studios, or at least there use to be - decades back. And, how many corner gas stations, corner drug stores, or corner studios are there any more?

M: The whole home recording market has really put a dent in a lot of the smaller studios that just can’t compete anymore. In one regard, it’s a shame because at least in bygone eras the studio was the center of a lot of collaboration that went on within the music community. And now, I guess, now maybe it’s just shifted to people’s bedroom and garages — wherever they have their gear set-up. It’s a much more informal environment.

Z: It is so much better because, in my neighborhood where I live, there are probably, within a thousand yards of my home, there are probably five small garage recording studios. Any weekend, two of them have a whole bunch of musicians that aren’t gigging that night, they got a case of beer outside and they’re in there for five, six, ten hours doing what they want to do. And now, you have the equipment to make high quality, absolutely phenomenal recordings wherever you are! And this allows us to capture more of what’s happening in the real music world. And we see this music business…this has got to bother you Matt, I’m presuming. Remember when music use to be only able to be accomplished by musicians? Now, if you’re just a pretty good desktop publisher you can put out a record. If you can’t sing a lick, you can fix your tunes so that you’re in perfect pitch. So, all of a sudden, a large portion of the music market is being opened up to people who aren’t really musicians. I don’t know if that’s good or bad.

M: I don’t know either. I tend to think that, hopefully the people who have the talent and the drive and the skill will rise to the top and the people who don’t have any skills, that are just cutting and pasting drum loop here and there will…. You know, they might put out a few things and amuse their friends, but hopefully the really talented people will rise to the forefront.

Z: Well, you know, sometimes it’s absolutely the lyrics that shoot through your skull and stay with you forever. And who can forget (inaudible) "…day it is" - a literary masterpiece by anyone’s stretch of imagination. Okay, let’s get to an actually good song by our guest tonight, Matt McCabe. The project is called King Never and we’re about to play "Fragments." What would you like to tell us about "Fragments"?

M: I wanted to throw this song out there because my wife Kristy McCabe does the vocals on a number of the songs, and this is one that received quite a bit of positive feedback.

("Fragments" played)

Z: Sitting in for Ray Phil McDonald, Z-man tonight. We’re talking with Matt McCabe from King Never in case you just joined us. Where do you see yourself in five years from now, ten years from now? I mean, will you ever stop writing and performing and producing music.

M: I suppose it’s possible, but I really don’t think so. This is…it’s been quite a long hobby for me that I enjoy. I think it’s so much a part of me now that I just couldn’t set aside my guitar. It’s too ingrained in who I am. So, five years? I hope to have a couple other albums out. I’d actually like to get a band together and start playing some of these songs out. Right now the project just exists in my home studio. It’d like to take it out on the road and do some gigs and introduce it to a live audience. Hopefully, within five years some of that will come to fruition.

Z: What about air play across this vast world of ours?

M: The album just came out and this is the first salvo into the great unknown….

Z: Well listen, I’ll tell you in front of the entire listening audience, we would be delighted to play music by you off this album, but you have to give us permission.

M: Well, you have my permission!

Z: We would be delighted and honored to play stuff off this album. You’ve got a great project.

M: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Z: Hey, listeners, maybe you guys want to chip in and tell me which tune you think we should put first into the rotation. For those of you who are just joining us, that’s Matt McCabe. He’s out in California. The project is called King Never. We’ve got another tracked cued up for you entitled "Monday". What’s up with "Monday"?

M: "Monday" is kind of an interesting song that actually started out life as an instrumental track. and it didn’t really sound anything like it sounds today. I threw down some parts and added some more guitar parts and eventually took out the original chord progressive. I shipped it off to my friend Jeff Elbel, who plays guitar on this song. He ended up writing some lyrics and melody for it. Then I had Kristy sing the melody. It really shows the versatility…at the time he lived in Southern California. I just burned all the audio tracks onto a CD-R, shipped it down to him, and he dumped it all into his computer, recorded his guitar, and recorded a scratch vocal. I like this song for the collaborative approach and…he really took it in a direction I wasn’t expecting.

("Monday" played)

Z: What do you think, listeners? You’re listening to the work of Matt McCabe…and friends. King Never is the name of the project. We’re working our way through a number of cuts off of the Orphans, Misfits & Fragments CD that has just come out. You know, we’ve got listeners in 173 countries a month — that’s not bad. There’ll be people in countries I can’t even pronounce the name or even tell you where they are that are listening to your music. What would be some high or low spots for you musically?

M: One of the low points was when my college band, called Able Cain, fizzled out. It was one project that I really believed in. I thought that we had a lot of potential to go somewhere. But as with many college bands, people finish school, get married and move on. And it just wasn’t meant to be. A high point? Right now, I’d say completing this album. I put a lot of work into it, a lot of hours. And it’s been really nice to get positive feedback from people whose opinions I respect.

Z: When you were in your studio, before you completed this…and I trust you mastered it and everything was done by you…

M: Correct.

Z: So, you had to make every decision. I’ve had arguments with other musicians, who play a song that they wrote and they play it one way, and God Bless America, if anyone converts from that at all, it is the sin of all time and you are banished from society. Yet, I’ve seen the Mona Lisa done in macaroni. Alright? It’s still the Mona Lisa. So to me, it’s a piece of artwork and it’s flattering if you can do it in more than one version. Do you find that you are sweating every detail, every note, or do you just have an easier time of it?

M: I think I took it to the extreme. When I was working on the mixes for this album, I probably came up with, on some of the songs, upwards of twenty different mixes that probably no one else on the planet would be able to tell what the difference was….

Z: The curse of non-destructive editing.

M: Yeah! But to me, it was a necessary change so I had to do it! And that’s what tough when you’re working on material at home without…

Z: You’d never do that if you were paying 165 bucks an hour….

M: Oh no! You’d do a couple of mixes…"Perfect!" So, there’s a lot of freedom in being able to do that many mixes. But I got to the point where I didn’t want to hear another note of this material.

Z: Twenty-nine takes of a four minutes song is three hours - just listening to it playing back! Not to mention messing with it. Get in there at the cellular level, moving DNA back and forth. You can work on a one second piece of music for hours. Well, let’s get back to another cut. We’ve got time for two more. We want to play "Circular Drone" next. What’s up with "Circular Drone"? What a name too.

M: The name basically came from the repeating arpeggiated guitar part that is going throughout the entire song. Beyond that, the lyrics have to do with…this is a song for people stuck in a job that they don’t enjoy and the corporate culture…if you will. It’s kind of an abstract song, but that’s the idea I was going with. This is a song I actually do the lead vocal on — although it’s very limited.

("Circular Drone" played)

Z: You’ve been listening to a featured music special this evening. The project is called King Never. Basically, that would be Matt McCabe who has been our guest the last hour. I want to commend him again on a fine, fine project. Very well done. Matt, let’s tell everybody, I mean that’s what we’re here for to support artists, where can folks pick up a copy of the CD?

M: I’ll give you a couple of different address. The first one is to the homepage for the project — www.finleysound.com/kingnever. You can find all sorts of information about the project there. To go directly to purchase the CD go to www.artistlaunch.com/kingnever.

Z: Do your neighbors hate you?

M: (laughs) Haven’t had any complaints. I try to be courteous. I try not to do any guitar solos at 3 am.

Z: I hate to keep plugging digital recording, but you can do it all with headphones. But it is right there. We say this because so many artists who need to get their stuff out need to get rid of the stereotype that it’s going to cost an arm and a leg. Oh yes, you can spend that much money if you want to or you can spend time. For you, what was the learning curve? I mean, you had to figure out the software. You gotta learn how to master. You gotta learn how to record. You gotta learn how to hook-up different components and make them interact. Is that easy or arduous for you?

M: It’s been fairly easy. Right around the time I started playing guitar, I also became interested in the technology side of it. I ended up volunteering in my local youth group to run sound for church services. So, I learned how to mix there. I also actually worked part time in a recording studio for a while. I’ve been using the same software…Emagic Logic Audio. It has a pretty steep learning curve, but I’ve been using it now for almost eight years, and probably only use about 5% of its capacity. It’s nice to know that if I needed some esoteric feature, I could dig into the manual and figure out how to do it.

Z: We all hope that we at least re-coup the cost of putting out an album as musicians. But, is that really the reason you do it? Is it just for the money?

M: Absolutely not. If I were to add up all my music related expenses, there’s probably no way I could recoup it all. But like I said before, I derive so much joy for doing it. It really is worth the money and if I can make a couple of bucks here and there that just sweetens the pot. It’s more for myself, my own enjoyment, and hopefully other people will enjoy it too.

Z: We are down to our last track everybody, it’s called "Gone." How appropriate. What do you want to say about that?

M: The song was written by myself and Greg Asher. It’s a collaborative piece, he wrote a little bit of the music. I wrote a little bit of the music. He wrote some of the lyrics, I wrote some of the lyrics. I think it came together really well and has a really cool vibe to it.

Z: Well, congratulations on an outstanding project. I think our listeners share my enthusiasm. It’s very well done and we are proud to be playing a couple of cuts from you on our station. Come back soon. Here’s the last cut from King Never, called "Gone." Thanks for being with us, Matt.

("Gone" played)